For those who want to learn about ethics of war

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Topic: For those who want to learn about ethics of war

For those who want to learn about ethics of war
«on: 05/25/02 at 06:32:30 »

I selected the following from Stanford encyclopaedia for those who wish to partake in a proper informed and well read debate on Justness of war especially at a moment when fighting wars have become the last resort for regimes losing legitimacy. Hope it will find readers and their criticism.
Prasenjit
IITB.

The Ethics of War and Peace
One of the most enduring, and difficult, philosophical questions with regard to war focuses on the ethics of getting involved with it in the first place. It is most helpful, in ordering one’s thoughts about this issue, to realize that there are three traditions of thought which dominate the philosophical treatment of this topic. This is not necessarily to imply that these three traditions exhaust all possible options for thinking about the ethics of war and peace, merely to note that they are hegemonic and importantly different from each other. But very few theories on the ethics of war succeed in resisting ultimate classification into one of them. The three traditions are: JUST WAR THEORY; REALISM; and PACIFISM.
Before spending some time discussing the core aspects of each tradition, let’s declare, right from the start, the core conceptual differences between "the big three" perspectives. The core, and controversial, proposition of just war theory is that, sometimes, states can have moral justification for resorting to armed force in the international system. War is sometimes, but of course not all the time, morally right. The idea here is not that the war in question is merely politically shrewd, or prudent, or bold and daring, but fully moral, just. It is an ethically appropriate use of mass political violence. Realism, by contrast, sports a profound skepticism about the application of moral concepts, such as justice, to the key problems of foreign policy. Power and national security, realists claim, motivate states during wartime and thus moral appeals are strictly wishful thinking. Talk of the morality of warfare is pure bunk: ethics has got nothing to do with the rough-and-tumble world of global politics, where only the strong and cunning survive. Pacifism does not share realism’s moral skepticism. For the pacifist, moral concepts can indeed be applied fruitfully to international affairs. It does make sense to ask whether a war is just. But the result of such normative application, in the case of war, is always that war should not be resorted to. Where just war theory is sometimes permissive with regard to war, pacifism is always prohibitive. For the pacifist, war is always wrong. Now let’s turn to each of these three traditions.

Just War Theory
Just war theory is probably the most influential perspective on the ethics of war and peace. The just war tradition has enjoyed a long and distinguished pedigree, including such notables as Augustine, Aquinas, Grotius, Suarez, Vattel and Vitoria. Hugo Grotius probably deserves credit for being the most comprehensive and formidable member of the tradition; and James T. Johnson is the authoritative historian of this tradition. Many of the rules developed by the just war tradition have since been codified into contemporary international laws governing armed conflict, such as The Hague and Geneva Conventions. The tradition has thus been doubly influential, dominating both moral and legal discourse surrounding war. It sets the tone, and the parameters, for the great debate.
Just war theory can be meaningfully divided into three parts, which in the literature are referred to, for the sake of convenience, in Latin. These parts are: 1) jus ad bellum, which concerns the justice of resorting to war in the first place; 2) jus in bello, which concerns the justice of conduct within war, after it has begun; and 3) jus post bellum, which concerns the justice of peace agreements and the termination phase of war.

Jus ad bellum
The rules of jus ad bellum are addressed, first and foremost, to heads of state. Since political leaders are the ones who inaugurate wars, setting their armed forces in motion, they are to be held accountable to jus ad bellum principles. If they fail in that responsibility, then they commit war crimes. In the language of the Nuremberg prosecutors, aggressive leaders who launch unjust wars commit "crimes against peace." What constitutes a just or unjust resort to armed force is disclosed to us by the rules of jus ad bellum. Just war theory contends that, for any resort to war to be justified, a political community, or state, must fulfil each and every one of the following six requirements:
1. Just cause. A state may launch a war only for the right reason. The just causes most frequently mentioned include: self-defence from external attack; the protection of innocents; and punishment for wrongdoing. Vitoria suggested that all of the proffered just causes be subsumed under the one category of "a wrong received." Walzer, and most modern just war theorists, speak of the one just cause for resorting to war being the resistance of aggression. Aggression, simply put, is unjustified and harmful violence.

The key principle underlying just cause, and just war theory more broadly, is the vindication of fundamental rights and the protection of those who have such rights from serious, standard threats to them, such as aggression. Self-defence, and other-defence, from rights violating aggression are thus prime just causes for resorting to war. These rights are traditionally understood as the rights of states to political sovereignty and territorial integrity: states have the right to make their own political decisions for their own people, within their own borders. Only if these rights are violated - for instance, through an armed invasion across the border - is a country justified in resorting to a war of self-defence in response. Other countries may join the war on the victim’s side, since the aggressor forfeits its state rights when it violates the victim’s.

But what grounds the importance of these state rights? States have state rights, to things like sovereignty and integrity, only because their individual citizens have human rights. People create, and adhere to, state structures in order to secure the objects of their human rights. Human rights are elemental entitlements we all have to basic human dignity and to the objects of vital human need. The human rights most broadly endorsed are those to life, liberty and subsistence, for instance as enshrined in the United Nation’s Universal Declaration and subsequent International Covenants.

Following John Rawls, we might establish criteria of minimal justice (MJ) which a state must fulfil if it is to be entitled to state rights: MJ 1) it is able to rule its people in accord with law and order; MJ 2) it provides its people with secure access to the objects of their human rights; and MJ 3) it adheres to basic norms of international justice, notably respect for the rights of persons and other minimally just states. Thus, a state which commits aggression against the people of another country violates principle MJ 3, and thus fails to be minimally just. A minimally just state forfeits its right not to be dealt with harshly, as a matter of appropriate punishment and rectification.

2. Right intention. A state must intend to fight the war only for the sake of a just cause. Having the right reason for launching a war is not enough: the actual motivation behind the resort to war must also be morally appropriate. Ulterior motives, such as a power or land grab, or irrational motives, such as revenge or ethnic hatred, are ruled out. The only right intention allowed is to see the just cause for resorting to war secured and consolidated. If another intentions crowd in, moral corruption sets in.

3. Proper authority and public declaration. A state may go to war only if the decision has been made by the appropriate authorities, according to the proper process, and made public, notably to its own citizens and to the enemy state(s).

4. Last Resort. A state may resort to war only if it has exhausted all plausible, peaceful alternatives to resolving the conflict in question, in particular diplomatic negotiation. One wants to make sure something as momentous and serious as war is declared only when it seems the only reasonable alternative to effectively punish aggression.

5. Probability of Success. A state may not resort to war if it can foresee that doing so will have no measurable impact on the situation. The aim here is to block mass violence which is going to be futile.

6. (Macro-) Proportionality. A state must, prior to initiating a war, weigh the universal goods expected to result from it, such as securing the just cause, against the universal evils expected to result, notably casualties. Only if the benefits are proportional to, or "worth", the costs may the war action proceed.

Just war theory insists all six criteria must each be fulfilled for a particular declaration of war to be justified: it’s all or no justification, so to speak. It is important to note that the first three of these six rules are what we might call deontological requirements, otherwise known as duty-based requirements or first-principle requirements. For a war to be just, some core duty must be violated: in this case, the duty not to commit aggression. A war in punishment of this violated duty must itself respect further duties: it must be appropriately motivated, and must be publicly declared by (only) the proper authority for doing so. The next three requirements are consequentialist: given that these first principle requirements have been met, we must also consider the expected consequences of launching a war which seems justified according to first principles. Thus, just war theory attempts to provide a common sensical combination of both deontology and consequentialism as applied to the issue of war.

Jus in bello
Jus in bello refers to justice in war, to right conduct in the midst of battle. Responsibility for state adherence to jus in bello norms falls primarily on the shoulders of those military commanders, officers and soldiers who formulate and execute the war policy of a particular state. They are to be held responsible for any breach of the principles which follow below. Such accountability may involve being put on trial for war crimes.
Just war theorists insist that jus in bello is a category separate from jus ad bellum. For even if a state has resorted to war justly, it may be prosecuting that war in an unjustified manner. It may be deploying decrepit means in pursuit of its otherwise justified end. Just war theory insists on a fundamental moral consistency between means and ends with regard to wartime behaviour: justified ends may only be pursued through justified means.

Concern with consistency, however, is not the only, or even the main, reason behind the endorsement of separate rules regulating wartime conduct. Such rules are also required to limit warfare, to prevent it from spilling over into an ever-escalating, and increasingly destructive, experiment in total warfare. If just wars are limited wars, designed to secure their just causes with only proportionate force, the need for rules on wartime restraint is clear. Even though modern warfare has displayed a disturbing tendency towards totality - particularly during the two World Wars - it does not follow that the death of old-time military chivalry marks the end of moral judgment. We still hold soldiers to certain standards of conduct.

There are three widely recognized rules of jus in bello.

1. Discrimination. Soldiers are only entitled to target those who are, in Walzer’s words, "engaged in harm." Thus, when they take aim, soldiers must discriminate between the civilian population, which is morally immune from direct and intentional attack, and those legitimate military, political and industrial targets involved in rights-violating harm. While some collateral civilian casualties are excusable, it is wrong to take deliberate aim at civilian targets. An example would be saturation bombing of residential areas.

2. (Micro-) Proportionality. Soldiers may only use force proportional to the end they seek. Weapons of mass destruction, for example, are usually seen as being out of proportion to legitimate military ends.

3. No Means Mala in Se. Soldiers may not use weapons or methods which are "evil in themselves." These include: mass rape campaigns; genocide or ethnic cleansing; torturing captured enemy soldiers; and using weapons whose effects cannot be controlled, like chemical or biological agents.

Jus post bellum
Jus post bellum refers to justice during the third and final stage of war: that of war termination. It seeks to regulate the ending of wars, and ease the transition from war back to peace. It is one of the most recent, and topical, issues in just war theory. See Orend’s works in the bibliography below for more. Orend proposes the following rules for jus post bellum:
1. Just cause for termination. A state has just cause to seek termination of the just war in question if there has been a reasonable vindication of those rights whose violation grounded the resort to war in the first place. Not only have most, if not all, unjust gains from aggression been eliminated and the objects of the victim’s rights been reasonably restored, but the aggressor is now willing to accept terms of surrender which include not only the cessation of hostilities, a formal apology and its renouncing the gains of its aggression but also its submission to reasonable principles of punishment, including compensation, war crimes trials, and perhaps rehabilitation.

2. Right intention. A state must intend to carry out the process of war termination only in terms of those principles contained in the other jus post bellum rules. Revenge is strictly ruled out as an animating force. Moreover, the just state in question must commit itself to symmetry and equal application with regard to the investigation and prosecution of any war crimes its own armed forces may have committed on the battlefield.

3. Public declaration and legitimate authority. The terms of the peace must be publicly proclaimed by a legitimate authority, which is to say the national government of the state victimized by the initial aggression, or perhaps an authorized international body.

4. Discrimination. In setting the terms of the peace, the just and victorious state is to differentiate between the political and military leaders, the soldiers and the civilian population within the aggressor. Undue and unfair hardship is not to be brought upon the civilian population in particular: punitive measures are to be focused upon those elites most responsible for the aggression.

5. Proportionality. Any terms of peace must be proportional to the end of reasonable rights vindication. Absolutist crusades against, and/or draconian punishments for, aggression are especially to be avoided. The people of the defeated aggressor never forfeit their human rights, and so are entitled not to be "blotted out" from the community of nations. There is thus no such thing as a morally-mandated unconditional surrender.

Any serious defection from these principles of jus post bellum, on the part either of the victim or the aggressor, is a violation of the rules of just war and so should be punished. At the very least, such violation of jus post bellum mandates a new round of good-faith diplomatic negotiations - perhaps even binding international arbitration - between the relevant parties to the dispute. At the very most, such violation gives the aggrieved party a just cause - but no more than a just cause - for resuming hostilities. Full recourse to the resumption of hostilities may be made only if all the other criteria of jus ad bellum are satisfied in addition to just cause.

Just war theory thus offers rules to guide decision-makers on the appropriateness of their conduct during the resort to war, conduct during war and the termination phase of the conflict. Its over-all aim is to try and ensure that wars are begun only for a very narrow set of truly defensible reasons, that when wars break out they are fought in a responsibly controlled and targeted manner, and that the parties to the dispute bring their war to an end in a speedy and responsible fashion that respects the requirements of justice.

Friend of Prasenjit
Guest

Re: For those who want to learn about ethics of wa
«on: 05/26/02 at 00:38:36 »

Hi Prasenjit,are you the same SUCI guy we used to see in G.C. College.
What are u doing now .I remember you were in many debates propagating your
pro-communist ideas.

Also Can you please tell us why do you log in to a computer
or internet because you people opposed these Capitalist concepts and machines previously.
Can you explain us about this change of heart.Like when did you start embracing
these Colonial machines for your propaganda.
I asked the same question to one Islamic guy in another topic,but he did have any reply to this
simple question of why is he using a non-Islamic concept or product.

Do you know what would have happened to India's Economy and Middle class if the IT Industry have'nt picked in India?
Most of the middle class people would have been unemployed and their status would have downgraded to Lower Class
without the IT Industry.
You communist talk of employment issues but see the condition of IT Industry in Calcutta compared to Bangalore.
Should the govt. only provide jobs without any work.

Another question is why dont you Communist take the good concepts of Communist(like Nationalism) from Mao or Stalin.
During Second World War ,Stalin asked his country man to fight for Mother Russia,not for Communism.
Similarly Mao strengthed the defence of his country to such an extend ,and we all know about China's economy.
But you people never talked or worked for strengthening India's defences or economy,which are the main Pillars
of any country.

Instead you talk about some worth Less topic like Communalism,Secularism,Gujarat trouble etc which does'nt help in strengthening the country's defences or economy in any way.

I remember you people justified and supported China during the 1962 war,right?

Prasenjit
Guest

Re: For those who want to learn about ethics of wa
«on: 05/26/02 at 08:35:12 »

[quote author=Friend of Prasenjit link=board=0011&num=1022326350&start=0#1 date=05/26/02 at 00:38:36]

My friend, if you are my friend, why do you just reveal about me, yourself remaining so faceless, as if the privilege of knowing you and your words are exclusively yours!

"Hi Prasenjit,are you the same SUCI guy we used to see in G.C. College.
What are u doing now .I remember you were in many debates propagating your
pro-communist ideas."

Well may have propagated Communist ideas, belonged to a communist group and not just "pro" like your Pro-Hindutva ideas, which are as disastrous as the VHP leaflet asking us in Bombay that nobody in Bombay should employ a Muslim worker, should not repair cars in any Muslim workshop etc.
etc. Anyway why don't shed your just Pro line and fully declare what you are. Why do you still require this part revealing shape like the tequila chasers of Corporate ballroom?
Why don't you become one wioth those killers of gandhi, those prosecutionists of Agra incident and those mercy petition writers of 1942 and those rabble rousers of 1962, 1992 and albeit war mongerers of 2002?

Thanks for your sweet remembering of you. Especially my debates. But do you still continue to be an onlooker, I guess what you were in your GC College days. I think you truly reflect the bankruptcy of many of your pals who just ran to tutors day in and out and became a 'software professional' , I call it so in lieu of a better description. Further you seem to have hardened the confusions of your young days without ever clarifying it and now that it had got rottened remind s me the proverb, JAR SATEE HOY NA TAR SATAISHEEO HOI NA.

PLEASE REVEAL YOURSELF, MY FRIEND.

"Also Can you please tell us why do you log in to a computer
or internet because you people opposed these Capitalist concepts and machines previously.
Can you explain us about this change of heart.Like when did you start embracing
these Colonial machines for your propaganda.
I asked the same question to one Islamic guy in another topic,but he did have any reply to this
simple question of why is he using a non-Islamic concept or product."

Computer as capitalist and colonial concept/machine, really your artificial intelligence remembers me very correctly. My criticism of computerisation in Banks and consequent retrenchment in public and private sector remains valid till today, my friend.
Why Do i use computer? To unearth the lies that you and your ilk spreads.
It industry as the sole propriety of Capitalists? Even shabir Shah knows that there now is no distinction between an investor in IT and user, as users are the real assets that either boom or doom IT. So you must thank me for being a user. However, taking you a loittle seriously, I would like to tell you that the so called IT industry makes a sharp distinction between a worker, a manager and a member of executives. I take the side of the worker who remain at the mercy of the bosses. You take the side of the managers and see how those who relly work resist your exploitation.

You asked the question to Islamic Guy? Why don't you ask the question to your pals in Ahmedabad who carried a print out of all the names of Muslim traders and their assets before looting them? If it could be used for looting, why can't be used to stop mischief monger like yours propaganda of lies?
Why do you also use such non-Vedic, non-Hindu machine that came from the West, of course to give morsels to hungry millions like you? Don't know that your Mnau dictated not to allow Women and Sudras from learning Vedas/ you want all others except corporate roaders like you to be treated as Sudras?

"Do you know what would have happened to India's Economy and Middle class if the IT Industry have'nt picked in India?
Most of the middle class people would have been unemployed and their status would have downgraded to Lower Class
without the IT Industry.
You communist talk of employment issues but see the condition of IT Industry in Calcutta compared to Bangalore.
Should the govt. only provide jobs without any work."

Your knowledge is as good as a new born. IT industry has picked in India? When software industries have been growing at a rate of 35% p.a. covering almost 13-14% of India’s total exports, the growth of India’s economy at an average6% seem to hinge upon such high growth areas. This simultaneously decreases the employment and product base and increases the demands for certain preferred goods in the market that go on to create a number of undesirable effects like a spiral of inflation accompanying the growth. Of course you may misinterpret such hardcor assessment of IT growth.

Anyway, neo-rich like you always suffer from the fear of being dispoossed of what you amass being an opprtunist. So you talk of 'Class', what a degradation from your vedic mantras to concrete socioeconomic realtites. You , i suppose have some pals in IT sector in Bangalore. ask them how many of them have come back to their homes awaiting a call from the bosses?

It industry in calcutta. I know that would have provided few of you a little more security. Wait shabir Shah is starting his new ventur in calcutta by 2002 end.

Govt providing jobs, well that's by any standard is a sign od welfare and not warfare. If private sharks like you have manipultaed the govt. machinery to make your assets by sheer swindling, how can there be work in govt. jobs? These govt. jobs are anyway only for eight hours a day, a legacy of Hey market, what can you, corporate roaders do to change them into your exploited dogs? You change to laws against the labourers.

"Another question is why dont you Communist take the good concepts of Communist(like Nationalism) from Mao or Stalin.
During Second World War ,Stalin asked his country man to fight for Mother Russia,not for Communism.
Similarly Mao strengthed the defence of his country to such an extend ,and we all know about China's economy."
Albeit very poor knowledge of History of what mao or Stalin did. remember stalin defeated hitler and America dropped atom bomb in Hiroshima. Why don't you take a vacation to Hiroshima? If you can't, just go to Jaduguda(Jharkhand) to see what goodie nuclear programmes bring.

You talk of China's economy? Do you understand the difference between Capitalist and Socialist economy? Perhaps you will never understand them. Just compare unemployment and industrial growth in China and India, you will have the first lesson in comparative international ecomnomics.

"But you people never talked or worked for strengthening India's defences or economy,which are the main Pillars
of any country."
Spending 25% of the budget in defense and spending less than therre percent in Health and Education and 10% in Infrastructure onjly makes pillars in the air, never to be installed. Even if such pillars are installed, they would be fallen pillars. Whom are we going to defend? The neo-rich like you who would create war hysteria across borders with every neighbour? The poor, Dalits, tribals constituinf 70% of the population does not support such machinations of elites like you because that makes them leave their homes on every occasions of border skirmish.

"Instead you talk about some worth Less topic like Communalism,Secularism,Gujarat trouble etc which does'nt help in strengthening the country's defences or economy in any way."

Strengtening defense with those chaddiwaallas? Those who dig the cricket pitch and those who kill in ahmedabad? For you secularism is not to be heard. read constitution once again. If you do not like that leave India or make it into a Hindu country , if you can. You talk of defense, as if defense is to be usedf for communalist pogroms like killiong muslims of Pakistan as that'a an externalization of the rage against internal Muslims. Tell me how does Defense strengthen Economy? By selling arms and increasing tension in the region?
Thre is something wrong in your Nationalism as that is against a tolerant multicultural India, but you preach a variety of national jingoism that deatroys the symbols of Hindu-Muslim joint contribution to our culture and forget even the principle of good neighbourly relations in order to satisfy the zeal of inflicting insult and defeat in the heart and minds of another Nation by systemically whipping up War.

I remember you people justified and supported China during the 1962 war,right?

Right as Indo-China conflict became the tool for rabble rousers to support a military campaign by India that only would have brought defeat, I stood against that then, when you met me as well as now, in the interest of keeping my country's name bright and not to carry the sense of defeat to posterity. You people are carrying that sense of misadeventure. a militarist mind like you would always remember such victory or defeat in order to rouse nationalistic, more correctly jingoistic feelings. Like a drukard you need such an occasion.

Nevertheless as you still have some literacy, at least you have not forgotten reading and writing please read rediff com's special news issue on 1962 war with China available at www.rediff.com/news/2001/may/23spec.htm.

Also to help you remove the silt of your anti-Muslim fanaticism please read Amartya sen's piece' 'A world not Neatly Divided' available at New York Times, 23rd Nov,2001. See archives.

I hope you would be able to take my comments in good taste. I am now a Professor of Philosphy at Indian institute of technology, Bombay.

[/quote]

Prasenjit
Guest

A clearer reply to my "Freind"
«on: 05/26/02 at 08:51:29 »

My friend, if you are my friend, why do you just reveal about me, yourself remaining so faceless, as if the privilege of knowing you and your words are exclusively yours!

Well I may have propagated Communist ideas, belonged to a communist group and not just "pro" like your Pro-Hindutva ideas, which are as disastrous as the VHP leaflet asking us in Bombay that nobody in Bombay should employ a Muslim worker, should not repair cars in any Muslim workshop etc.
etc. Anyway why don't you shed your just Pro line and fully declare what you are. Why do you still require this part revealing shape like the tequila chasers of corporate ballroom?
Why don't you become one with those killers of gandhi, those prosecutionists of Agra incident and those mercy petition writers of 1942 and those rabble rousers of 1962, 1992 and albeit war mongerers of 2002?

Thanks for your sweet remembering of me. Especially my debates. But do you still continue to be an onlooker, I guess what you were in your GC College days. I think you truly reflect the bankruptcy of many of your pals who just ran to tutors day in and out and became a 'software professional' , I call it so in lieu of a better description. Further you seem to have hardened the confusions of your young days without ever clarifying it and now that it had got rottened remind s me the proverb, JAR SATEE HOY NA TAR SATAISHEEO HOI NA.

PLEASE REVEAL YOURSELF, MY FRIEND.

"Also Can you please tell us why do you log in to a computer
or internet because you people opposed these Capitalist concepts and machines previously.
Can you explain us about this change of heart.Like when did you start embracing
these Colonial machines for your propaganda.
I asked the same question to one Islamic guy in another topic,but he did have any reply to this
simple question of why is he using a non-Islamic concept or product."

Computer as capitalist and colonial concept/machine, really your artificial intelligence remembers me very correctly. My criticism of computerisation in Banks and consequent retrenchment in public and private sector remains valid till today, my friend.
Why Do i use computer? To unearth the lies that you and your ilk spreads.
It industry as the sole propriety of Capitalists? Even Shabir Shah knows that there now is no distinction between an investor in IT and user, as users are the real assets that either boom or doom IT. So you must thank me for being a user. However, taking you a loittle seriously, I would like to tell you that the so called IT industry makes a sharp distinction between a worker, a manager and a member of executives. I take the side of the worker who remain at the mercy of the bosses. You take the side of the managers and see how those who relly work resist your exploitation.

You asked the question to Islamic Guy? Why don't you ask the question to your pals in Ahmedabad who carried a print out of all the names of Muslim traders and their assets before looting them? If it could be used for looting, why can't be used to stop mischief monger like your’s propaganda of lies?
Why do you also use such non-Vedic, non-Hindu machine that came from the West, of course to give morsels to hungry millions like you? Don't know that your Mnau dictated not to allow Women and Sudras from learning Vedas/ you want all others except corporate roaders like you to be treated as Sudras?

"Do you know what would have happened to India's Economy and Middle class if the IT Industry have'nt picked in India?
Most of the middle class people would have been unemployed and their status would have downgraded to Lower Class
without the IT Industry.
You communist talk of employment issues but see the condition of IT Industry in Calcutta compared to Bangalore.
Should the govt. only provide jobs without any work."

Your knowledge is as good as a new born. IT industry has picked in India? When software industries have been growing at a rate of 35% p.a. covering almost 13-14% of India’s total exports, the growth of India’s economy at an average6% seem to hinge upon such high growth areas. This simultaneously decreases the employment and product base and increases the demands for certain preferred goods in the market that go on to create a number of undesirable effects like a spiral of inflation accompanying the growth. Of course you may misinterpret such hardcor assessment of IT growth.

Anyway, neo-rich like you always suffer from the fear of being dispoossed of what you amass being an opprtunist. So you talk of 'Class', what a degradation from your vedic mantras to concrete socioeconomic realtites. You , i suppose have some pals in IT sector in Bangalore. ask them how many of them have come back to their homes awaiting a call from the bosses?

IT industry in Calcutta? I know that would have provided few of you a little more security. Wait shabir Shah is starting his new ventur in calcutta by 2002 end.

Govt providing jobs, well that's by any standard is a sign od welfare and not warfare. If private sharks like you have manipultaed the govt. machinery to make your assets by sheer swindling, how can there be work in govt. jobs? These govt. jobs are anyway only for eight hours a day, a legacy of Hey market, what can you, corporate roaders do to change them into your exploited dogs? You change to laws against the labourers.

"Another question is why dont you Communist take the good concepts of Communist(like Nationalism) from Mao or Stalin.
During Second World War ,Stalin asked his country man to fight for Mother Russia,not for Communism.
Similarly Mao strengthed the defence of his country to such an extend ,and we all know about China's economy."
Albeit very poor knowledge of History of what mao or Stalin did. remember stalin defeated hitler and America dropped atom bomb in Hiroshima. Why don't you take a vacation to Hiroshima? If you can't, just go to Jaduguda(Jharkhand) to see what goodie nuclear programmes bring.

You talk of China's economy? Do you understand the difference between Capitalist and Socialist economy? Perhaps you will never understand them. Just compare unemployment and industrial growth in China and India, you will have the first lesson in comparative international ecomnomics.

"But you people never talked or worked for strengthening India's defences or economy,which are the main Pillars
of any country."
Spending 25% of the budget in defense and spending less than therre percent in Health and Education and 10% in Infrastructure onjly makes pillars in the air, never to be installed. Even if such pillars are installed, they would be fallen pillars. Whom are we going to defend? The neo-rich like you who would create war hysteria across borders with every neighbour? The poor, Dalits, tribals constituinf 70% of the population does not support such machinations of elites like you because that makes them leave their homes on every occasions of border skirmish.

"Instead you talk about some worth Less topic like Communalism,Secularism,Gujarat trouble etc which does'nt help in strengthening the country's defences or economy in any way."

Strengtening defense with those chaddiwaallas? Those who dig the cricket pitch and those who kill in ahmedabad? For you secularism is not to be heard. read constitution once again. If you do not like that leave India or make it into a Hindu country , if you can. You talk of defense, as if defense is to be usedf for communalist pogroms like killiong muslims of Pakistan as that'a an externalization of the rage against internal Muslims. Tell me how does Defense strengthen Economy? By selling arms and increasing tension in the region?
Thre is something wrong in your Nationalism as that is against a tolerant multicultural India, but you preach a variety of national jingoism that deatroys the symbols of Hindu-Muslim joint contribution to our culture and forget even the principle of good neighbourly relations in order to satisfy the zeal of inflicting insult and defeat in the heart and minds of another Nation by systemically whipping up War.

"I remember you people justified and supported China during the 1962 war,right?"

Right as Indo-China conflict became the tool for rabble rousers to support a military campaign by India that only would have brought defeat, I stood against that then, when you met me as well as now, in the interest of keeping my country's name bright and not to carry the sense of defeat to posterity. You people are carrying that sense of misadeventure. a militarist mind like you would always remember such victory or defeat in order to rouse nationalistic, more correctly jingoistic feelings. Like a drukard you need such an occasion.

Nevertheless as you still have some literacy, at least you have not forgotten reading and writing please read rediff com's special news issue on 1962 war with China available at www.rediff.com/news/2001/may/23spec.htm.

Also to help you remove the silt of your anti-Muslim fanaticism please read Amartya sen's piece' 'A world not Neatly Divided' available at New York Times, 23rd Nov,2001. See archives.

I hope you would be able to take my comments in good taste. I am now a Professor of Philosphy at Indian institute of technology, Bombay.

[/quote]

Himadri
hrc

Re: For those who want to learn about ethics of wa
«on: 05/26/02 at 10:17:39 »

[quote author=Prasenjit link=board=0011&num=1022326350&start=0#0 date=05/25/02 at 06:32:30]

I selected the following from Stanford encyclopaedia for those who wish to partake in a proper informed and well read debate on Justness of war
[/quote]

India's decision to go to war with Pakistan, if at all it is made, is completely in consonance with the principles of ethics of war that you quoted, although the dynamics of such a conflict is well beyond the scope of such simplistic assesments.

I don't intend to interject in your discussions with your friend, but I would like to ask you only one question on the general tone of your views about economic development based on socialist concepts.Can you name one country that has successfully used the socialist system of economy in providing a higher standard of living and all round development to its people ? The case of China won't even apply, as it fully relies on Capitalist concepts when it comes to economy, but uses communist style repressions when it comes to rights and liberty, which is absolutely monstrous but that's a different topic of discussion.If you can name just one such country, then probably we can talk more on what are the essential faults of each system of economy.Or else there can be no chatter on this topic based on ludicrous presumptions of utopia.

prasenjit
Guest

Re: Do Not Pass your Idelogical Judgement on readi
«on: 05/26/02 at 11:03:32 »

Capitalist enterprise in China? It's just an economic deal with other capitalist countries as China can't afford to shut itself from exchanges with capitalist countries. It's just 10% of the chinese economy i9n terms of Productivity, a very different criteria of measurement of Development than GDP etc. Itr's a socialist concept.

The base of Chinese economy is it's vast agriculutral and industrial communies under the Communist Party Of China.

So your pro-capitalist thinking does not hold much.
Further Capitalist enterprises talk of social capital and recognizes what Marx called the rise of Finance capital as the ultimate form of Capital. The notion of profiteering anf capital within Capitalism has undergone chages that tried to address the socialist challenge. In that way they remined competing and complermentary.

Your passing of judgement on something like a reading material uis rather odd. everybody would like to derive their own conclusion. For claiming justness of war one has to conform to ethical standards, which , I suppose are very high and there is no way to hysterically say all that is fulfilled just because tyou are a certain variety of nationalist. The problem with you is that you foreclose thinking in order to establish your ideological positions. You have to understand that such materials are not prpduced from an overwhelming concern for an ideology but to cultivate values that are still to be accomplished in most part of the human cvilizations.

Shyam
Guest

Re: For those who want to learn about ethics of wa
«on: 05/26/02 at 13:19:43 »

Well Prasenjit,It's really good to know that you are in a very respectable Job in one of the Premier Indian Institutes(IITB).

And I have also passed from one such premier Institutes.
But I am afraid you are corrupting an entire Generation of Bright
Engineering Students.But that is not cause for Worry because I know most Engineering Students will dismiss you
as a MAD Guy with Potato Highly Defective(you know what it means) Professor .
Also frankly speaking do you have any alliance with Dawood Bhai who might have paid you to propagate
Anti-national ideas.
Also let me know about your relationship(!!! many times have you .......) with Arundhati Roy,another
sample like you who has spread non-sense about some incidents in Gujarat resulting in spoiling of the
life of some innocent people.Though she regretted later about it,but after doing the damage.

Any way since I have identified you ,so I dont want to waste my time discussing with you.

What the hell made you to think that only you are learned with Your destructive Philosophical ideas and
all others only know to read and write .You know that a philosophy Professor is of no use for a country.

The Govt. just wastes by paying you salary with the 30 percent tax we pay after working hard.

I am working in one of the Best R&D company of the last Century,the benefit of which
goes to people like you.I never resent any extra work assigned by my Manager,because they pay us beyond our
expectations.And I am interested in working more.We should learn from the hard working & Intelligent Israelis.
And I beleive this is the only way India can go forward if all Indians work with dedication towards
their respective goals.

So even if you try to provoke people like me against my Managers,we will never do it.because we know what
happened to West Bengal which went 100 years back because of simple people listening to leaders like you.
Are you practising trade Unionism in IITB.But no problem people there will kick you in the ass if you try
to create any trouble there.
Only when I need some relaxation ,do I come to this site to see your rubbish stories and counter them.Because I dont want
my fellow Silcharites to consume your rubbish stoires and ideologies.

Expecting a five page reply from you.
;D

Himadri
hrc

Re: Do Not Pass your Idelogical Judgement on readi
«on: 05/26/02 at 15:16:54 »

[quote author=prasenjit link=board=0011&num=1022326350&start=0#5 date=05/26/02 at 11:03:32]
Capitalist enterprise in China? It's just an economic deal with other capitalist countries as China can't afford to shut itself from exchanges with capitalist countries.........
[/quote]

You did not answer my question about naming a single country that has become developed by following a socialist system of economy.And unless you can show a shining example, the whole argument is moot as I said previously.

And your statements on Chinese agricutural communes is completely untrue.One of the first steps of Chinese liberalization starting in 1978, was to dismantle the commune structure in the agricultural sector and replace it with long term land leases that permitted peasants to keep the proceeds from their extra production, nearly duplicating the incentives of private enterprise while maintaining state ownership of land.This was done by increasing family control over agricultural production by giving land use rights and other collective assets to farm families in a new institutional structure completed by 1984. In the second set of liberalization, small community-owned enterpirses were allowed to flourish, with a lot of freedom to attract foreign investment and by exemption from Beijing's rules on labour,taxes and investment.This resulted in the formation of the stock markets which are used to generate capital outside of state controlled channels of investment thus giving the people the scope to generate and own capital in enterprises, which I guess is radically different from all that Marxism advocates, ain't it ? Another statistic that may be quite illuminating is that the contribution of state controlled enterprises to the GDP decreased from 78 percent in 1979 to 34 percent in 1994.And China wasn't anywhere closer to a great economy prior to the nineties.So, as much as your spin doctors of socialist propaganda may want the world to believe that China is still a socialist economy, the Chinese themselves do not believe that, leave alone the others.But inspite of all that, what might seem to be an eclectic mix, is actually a monstrous one.It uses capitalism without the checks and balances of a capitalist society by not providing the complete set of rights and freedom that such a society needs, to provide an equal opportunity in free enterprise to one and all.

Prasenjit
Guest

FOR SHYAM
«on: 05/27/02 at 02:28:40 »

[quote author=Shyam link=board=0011&num=1022326350&start=0#6 date=05/26/02 at 13:19:43]
Well Prasenjit,It's really good to know that you are in a very respectable Job in one of the Premier Indian Institutes(IITB).

And I have also passed from one such premier Institutes.
But I am afraid you are corrupting an entire Generation of Bright
Engineering Students.But that is not cause for Worry because I know most Engineering Students will dismiss you
as a MAD Guy with Potato Highly Defective(you know what it means) Professor .
Also frankly speaking do you have any alliance with Dawood Bhai who might have paid you to propagate
Anti-national ideas.
Also let me know about your relationship(!!! many times have you .......) with Arundhati Roy,another
sample like you who has spread non-sense about some incidents in Gujarat resulting in spoiling of the
life of some innocent people.Though she regretted later about it,but after doing the damage.

SO YOU ARE SHYAM THE ANIMAL PASSED OUT FROM PREMIER INSTITUTE PRAISING YOUR HERD OF AHMEDABAD. YOU ARE THORUOGHTLY SPOILT BY THE COMPANY OF YOUR HERD. YOU ARE A GOOD ENGINEER OF RIOTS< REALLY PASSED OUT OF A PREMIER INSTITUTE. IF PEOPLE LIKE YOU CLAIM PREMIERITY, WHERE WOULD PEACE LOVING MILLIONS GO?

Any way since I have identified you ,so I dont want to waste my time discussing with you.

SO YOU REVEAL......THAT YOU ARE ONE OF THOSE ANTI_SOCIALS NOW OPERATING IN GUJRAT. DID YOU HAD A PREVIOUS STINT WITH CHHOTA RAJAN, NOW A PREMIER FOR FUNDING FANATICS.

What the hell made you to think that only you are learned with Your destructive Philosophical ideas and
all others only know to read and write .You know that a philosophy Professor is of no use for a country.

The Govt. just wastes by paying you salary with the 30 percent tax we pay after working hard.

CHUCHU, BELIEVE THAT YOU ARE ALSO GIVEN SUCH ROUSING TREATMENT BY YOUR MANAGERS.

YOU WORK HARD AND TALK LIKE A LUNATIC TO DESTROY THE MULTICULTURAL AND MULTIRELIGIOUS FABRIC OF THIS COUNTRY. YOU ARE A BLOT TO THE R&D CORP OF THIS COUNTRY.

I am working in one of the Best R&D company of the last Century,the benefit of which
goes to people like you.I never resent any extra work assigned by my Manager,because they pay us beyond our
expectations.And I am interested in working more.We should learn from the hard working & Intelligent Israelis.
And I beleive this is the only way India can go forward if all Indians work with dedication towards
their respective goals.

YOUR DEDICATION IS ONLY SELFISH AS YOU ARE COMMUNAL AND HINDU FANATIC WHO REQUIRES TO QUARANTINE THE LAYERS OF RABID INSTINCTS.

So even if you try to provoke people like me against my Managers,we will never do it.because we know what
happened to West Bengal which went 100 years back because of simple people listening to leaders like you.
Are you practising trade Unionism in IITB.But no problem people there will kick you in the ass if you try
to create any trouble there.

YOU LICK THE BOOT OF YOUR MANAGERS THAT WILL GIVE YOU A PLACE IN THEIR BLOODSUCKING COMPANY. THEN YOU WON"T PROPOSE TO SUCK THE BLOOD OF MUSLIMS.
TRADE UNIONS ARE SYMBOLS OF TOILING PEOPLE, YOU CANNOT WISH IT AWAY.

Only when I need some relaxation ,do I come to this site to see your rubbish stories and counter them.Because I dont want
my fellow Silcharites to consume your rubbish stoires and ideologies.

RELAXATION, YOU CAN NEVER BE RELAXED AS RABID INSTINCTS WOULD KEEP ON EATING YOUR MIND.
YOU CAN CONSUME OTHER THING AS WELL TO TRY RELAXATION.

Expecting a five page reply from you.
SO MY FRIEND DO NOT GET UPSET IF YOU ARE REPLIED PROPERLY. TRY TO READ MORE OF ARUNDHATI ROY AS THAT MAY ACT AS MEDICINE FOR YOU. DO NOT LEAVE THE HABIT OF READING!

;D
[/quote]

Sourav Laskar
Guest

Re: For those who want to learn about ethics of wa
«on: 05/27/02 at 04:54:00 »

[quote author=Shyam link=board=0011&num=1022326350&start=0#6 date=05/26/02 at 13:19:43]
The Govt. just wastes by paying you salary with the 30 percent tax we pay after working hard.

I am working in one of the Best R&D company of the last Century,the benefit of which
goes to people like you.I never resent any extra work assigned by my Manager,because they pay us beyond our
expectations.And I am interested in working more.We should learn from the hard working & Intelligent Israelis.
And I beleive this is the only way India can go forward if all Indians work with dedication towards
their respective goals.

;D
[/quote]

Just a minor interjection:-
If I may be allowed to extrapolate, by your remark, Israel should then have a healthy disdain of Philosophy :-/
Simple ass headed hard work does not imply progress, I believe, you wouldn't find anybody more hardworking than the Nazis.
The precise reason why India is in drains today is that there is a paucity of philosophers at the top. And before we go about firing Philosophy professors, we would better actively do something about people who cheat even animals of their food than taking the polling day to be a holiday.
Yes, yes we should all work hard singularly towards our goal,
however that has a very dangerous pitfall of giving into a
vicious circle where the symbiotic relationsihip occurs only
between a certain group of people and not the rest. I don't know where you live, I am put up in Bangalore -- often during
the weekends I go up to Gangarams in MG Road. I see a sea
of people who are indeed being payed more than they want let alone need, their face shows it, working hard, very hard indeed, their speech reveals it, and I would indeed be a beneficiary of their effort -- someway or the other. But I also see a woman on the pavement begging for some money for her child on her lap -- crying insanely clutching tightly to the mother's clothes, black with dirt. Suddenly I realise how is my engineering effors going to solve this woman's problem, and many others'. I return without entering Gangarams. My head hung low with a sense of shame, which is both individual and national.

Get lost Shyam
Guest

Re: For those who want to learn about ethics of wa
«on: 05/27/02 at 07:56:06 »

Oye Shyam !!, debating logically on a topic is not your cup of tea..

Your language is so uncultured that it stinks like a rotten dustbin.. You are a great misfit to this place dear shyam. Look at the way Himadri is debating with Prasenjit.. both of them differs but each has respect for the other.

Uncultured people like you are best in rioting, killing and Tampering History Text books..

Please don't spoil this place with your uneducated and uncultured remarks.

for Shyam
Guest

Re: For those who want to learn about ethics of wa
«on: 05/27/02 at 08:21:41 »

Well Prasenjit,why dont you go to Pakistan or Kashmir or Hyderabad,India and advocate your Philosophy.After that tell me how tough a Pundo lat(PL) you get in your ass from them.
For your information ,I am now staying in Hyderabad .I did stay in Nioda for one year previously.
And you will be happy to know that I am able to influence people's opinion about any incident be Gujarat or whatever in India's favour .
But the problem is with people like you who spread lies about your own country even abroad.

the most interesting thing expected from you is development figures of West Bengal.I think it is the most developed state in India.Right?
I will definitely believe your figures.Tell me?

Shyam
Guest

Re: For those who want to learn about ethics of wa
«on: 05/27/02 at 08:24:43 »

Well As far as making personal remarks is concerned,Prasenjit did start it and so I dont feel I should keep quiet after that.

Shivaji
Guest

Re: For those who want to learn about ethics of wa
«on: 05/27/02 at 09:16:26 »

Some self-appointed guardians of Hindutva are trying to set the parameters of patriotism and nationalism these days.
To them, the more you kill people from other religion, the more nationalist or patriot you are. If you don't support their ideology, you are a pseudosecularist or a pakistani.

These peoples cultural backgrounds are spectrawide, ranging from Rioting and burning people to Tampering history text books.

Their aim is to exploit the sentiment of people to gain political milage. Some of them provokes people against other religions to kill and then justify bloodbath in the name of religion, some of these hypocrites tries 'swadeshi jagoron' platform to exploit the national sentiment to protest against 'Non Indian Products !!!???' . Some of these talibans also wants to set the standards for what should constitute Indian culture. They vandalised card shops and harrased couples on valentines day because " it's a phoren culture.. too bad for we Indians ". Someday, they will also try to define what dresses you should wear and what not.

Looking at these , I feel proud to be a Hindu whose brains are not washed with Nazi solution. I feel proud to be a Hindu who do not have to justify killings. I feel proud to be a Hindu who did not succumb to a fundamentalist ideology. I feel proud to be a Hindu and Indian(the much larger group of Indians) who wants to look beyond the bigotry and violence. I feel proud to be the part of silent majority who may still not be vocal enough, but whose presence cannot be wished away.

ojeen
Guest

Have you seen China with your own eyes?
«on: 05/29/02 at 07:36:50 »

Prasenjit,
Have you been to China (mainland China, as popularly known)? I had the "great privelege" of spending some time there and it is not a pretty sight.
I cannot understand this: if the Chinese government is doing so great, why are the Chinese trying to migrate to other countries in ship containers? Can you rationalise why some Chinese are commiting this virtual suicide? Can you try to understand what kind of repressive rule can make people do this?
Do not confine yourself to communist manifestos and propaganda. Go to China (apparently the most succesful communist country) and see for yourself the grass-root reality (hmm, where did I hear that term before? ;) )
Cheers.

Prasenjit
Guest

Re: Visit to China
«on: 05/31/02 at 02:45:35 »

You may have visited China on your commercial trips. Also as you presume that China is repressive and underdeveloped from your borrowed western standard, visitors like you act as witness to the Anti-China propaganda. What you must have seen in China may have given you a surprise and when you compared it with your own state of existence you may have found that to be much better. I suspect you rmotive of visiting China as had China been so distressed as you try to say, why didi you at all go to China looking for greener pastures?

You talk of virtual suicides. Why don't you take the trouble of visiting North Maharashtra, Kalahandi and drought prone areas of Andhra, then one can understand what level of missionary zeal you actually have. If you gone to China for tourism, from your tourist point of view things would look like the western observers who visit India and back home tell that Oh! India is so dirty. You are one with them when you cite an instance of
misfortune of Chinese People to justify your travelogue.

Let me know which cantons and Cities of china did you visit and then we can debte about your observations, otherweiase they are bird's eye point of view without any focus.

Ojeen
Guest

Re: For those who want to learn about ethics of wa
«on: 05/31/02 at 03:32:05 »

I did not go to china to pursue greener pastures and neither as a tourist. I have been to Shanghai and Beijing and if you want to talk about them, you are welcome. And by the way, indians do not use ship containers to migrate to other countries.
Also, most areas of Indian cities (especially calcutta) are dirty by any standard. You have to be blind not to see that. Of course if you have over populated cities, it cannot be helped. Have a stroll around IITB this evening and check out the sorry state.
Do not cite communism as a cure. Look at what communism has done to WB. Do not say that the years were not enough.

Onlooker
Guest

Re: For those who want to learn about ethics of wa
«on: 05/31/02 at 04:04:46 »

Dear ojeen, West bengal is atleast better than most of the Indian states. Industrially it may not be the topmost state but it is above most of the states. Educationally, if you look at the list of Top ten colleges published by India Today, Many collges of Calcutta are there along with other Metros. IIT kgp is the best institution for the last two years.

Most importantly, citizens (Hindu or Muslim) donot feel insecure in Westbengal. What happened in Gujrat will never happen in West Bengal.

The main problem is, If West bengal had been ruled by Sangha Parivar, you people would have said it is the paradise in the World. Since, West Bengal rejects your ideology it caused so much pain to you.

Himadri
hrc

Re: For those who want to learn about ethics of wa
«on: 05/31/02 at 11:47:06 »

Communism is an indefensible ideology and anyone exercising in that effort, either has to be blind to the reality or has a vested interest in the survival of communism.There has never been a bigger scourge then communism in all of human history.It has bloodied its hands with the lives of nearly 100 million people for the sake of the ideology, in one century alone, and that includes China as well, whose contributions towards increasing that number every single year, is also quite significant.

For Onlooker
Guest

Re: For those who want to learn about ethics of wa
«on: 05/31/02 at 14:35:57 »

[quote author=Onlooker link=board=0011&num=1022326350&start=15#17 date=05/31/02 at 04:04:46]
Dear ojeen, West bengal is atleast better than most of the Indian states. Industrially it may not be the topmost state but it is above most of the states. Educationally, if you look at the list of Top ten colleges published by India Today, Many collges of Calcutta are there along with other Metros. IIT kgp is the best institution for the last two years.

Most importantly, citizens (Hindu or Muslim) donot feel insecure in Westbengal. What happened in Gujrat will never happen in West Bengal.

The main problem is, If West bengal had been ruled by Sangha Parivar, you people would have said it is the paradise in the World. Since, West Bengal rejects your ideology it caused so much pain to you.
[/quote]

Regarding the Institutions/ Colleges and education of WB, are you quite sure that they are in a very good position?
A few years back I had read an article about the top ten colleges of India( In every field), and I found that the Calcutta Colleges were indeed among the top ones in the country, at least in some fields. As a Bengali I had felt somewhat proud .But just one or two years after that, when I was referring to the same magazine, I found that the ranking had dropped drastically. And that too, in every field.

I am not so sure about IIT KGP, but as far as I can recall, IIT Powai was the top one.

Of course these rates keep on changing from year to year.

When you say that " Educationally, if you look at the list of Top ten colleges published by India Today, Many collges of Calcutta are there along with other Metros" or whatever, please note that there were better times for them. They might still be among the best colleges, BUT the ranking is going down day by day. Anyway, I think even that's a matter of great pride to you.....that WB is progressing in the backward direction.

Observer
Guest

Re: For Himdri's Self-Certfying Nonsense
«on: 06/01/02 at 03:37:30 »

If communism is responsible for genocides as you say, Wht would you say about nazis and Post-second World war genocides by united States of America? For a close minded person like you, you place 'communism' in when you are supposed to speak COMMUNALISM. Let me tell you that skirting communalists in India and abroad, who are now raking up passion nagainst minorities and dalits and raising the bogey of war are slow killers of humanity. Hitler may have exterminated Jews, but such slow killers are killing humanity day in and day out by propagating communal hatred in the name of Hindutva. So to skirt all your vile propaganda do not make Communism a scapegoat. Also you must keep in mind that the rise of indutva forces would go down as the bleakest period of India's democratic polity and if nowhere else, le like advani would find a place in the Museum of dictators. It's no sooner than better such communal stink is wiped out by some progressive forces of History. Communism is one such force that had fought fundamentalism of all colour and fought exploitation by free market economy and e3stablished Worker's states all over the world. A few reactionaries like you can never change this invincible progress of history even though you say History has come to an end with BJP in power and all that would happen would be in accordance with what Nastradamus said, a favourite pulp that Sangh Parivar had propagated like the Neo_Nazis of Germany.

prasenjit
Guest

Re: Visit to China
«on: 06/01/02 at 03:43:23 »

Dear Ojeen,
your visit to china was like a few Americans and Britons visiting Delhi and Bombay and claiming that they visited India.
You visit to Beijing and Sanghai proves my point that either you are a businessman or an official or some professional who visited China in some capacity andf then makes the rapacious statement about visiting China. Well I know that people like you can't imagine what interior China is all about. I should say go down to Cantons of China to see the real China, whatever good or bad it be. There are these people leaving for the west for jobs but there also people who do the hard work and made China happy in many vital ways.

Himadri
hrc

Re: For Himdri's Self-Certfying Nonsense
«on: 06/01/02 at 08:23:14 »

[quote author=Observer link=board=0011&num=1022326350&start=15#20 date=06/01/02 at 03:37:30]
A few reactionaries like you can never change this invincible progress of history even though you say History has come to an end with BJP in power and all that would happen would be in accordance with what Nastradamus said, a favourite pulp that Sangh Parivar had propagated like the Neo_Nazis of Germany.
[/quote]

You humour me, my friend....being anonymous gives you the cover that is so necessary to defend mass murderers.

Progress of history, eh ? ...indeed some kinda progress as killing machines, these communists have made.Pick your favourite and go sing the paeans.....who is it gonna be, huh ?....Pol Pot, Deng Xiao Ping or the greatest mass murderer in history, Uncle Joe Stalin himself ? Those types alongwith Hitler make up the hall-of-fame of genocide, but even Hitler pales away in front of the august assemby that the commies have managed to put up.

Another non-Communist
Guest

Re: For those who want to learn about ethics of wa
«on: 06/03/02 at 04:51:48 »

Hi Prasenjit please tell why is your party not successful in spreading your ideology to all states in India other than West Bengal and Kerala.

Onlooker
Guest

Re: For those who want to learn about ethics of wa
«on: 06/03/02 at 08:51:54 »

[quote author=For Onlooker link=board=0011&num=1022326350&start=15#19 date=05/31/02 at 14:35:57]

Regarding the Institutions/ Colleges and education of WB, are you quite sure that they are in a very good position?
A few years back I had read an article about the top ten colleges of India( In every field), and I found that the Calcutta Colleges were indeed among the top ones in the country, at least in some fields. As a Bengali I had felt somewhat proud .But just one or two years after that, when I was referring to the same magazine, I found that the ranking had dropped drastically. And that too, in every field.

I am not so sure about IIT KGP, but as far as I can recall, IIT Powai was the top one.

Of course these rates keep on changing from year to year.

When you say that " Educationally, if you look at the list of Top ten colleges published by India Today, Many collges of Calcutta are there along with other Metros" or whatever, please note that there were better times for them. They might still be among the best colleges, BUT the ranking is going down day by day. Anyway, I think even that's a matter of great pride to you.....that WB is progressing in the backward direction.
[/quote]

[quote author=For Onlooker link=board=0011&num=1022326350&start=15#19 date=05/31/02 at 14:35:57]

Yes Brother, According to India Today Survey, IIT Kgp is the best institution in India for the last two consecutive years.

Also I think you will not disagree that IIM Kolkata is one of Asia's finest Business Schools.

And as per India Today Rankings, in arts, science and commerce, Presidency College Kolkata and St. Xavier's Kolkata had always been among the top 5 colleges in India for the last few years. (You can check yourself to see if the rankings had degraded accross the years)

Jadavpur University has been awarded the status of "University with potential for excellence" by the University Grant Commission. The status of "University with potential for excellence" has been bestowed to only five selected universities, Jadavpur University being one of them. The University has been accredited by the NAAC (National Accreditation & Assignment Council) with "FIVE STARS" for five years.

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